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How to discuss things on the internet by Rory
So I seem to be running into a spate of situations where when two parties are trying to discuss something, one party immediately shuts down and goes into full defensive mode at the first sign of people not agreeing with them. Then come the unwarranted personal attacks, and in a heated fit they lose all credibility of any valid points that they may have had, with me sitting there in a stupor because I can't fathom the mental gymnastics that just occurred. I can hardly believe the number of supposed adults who cannot take even the slightest hint of someone thinking differently than they do, but what really gets me is the vitriol that spews forth, the condescending superiority, and the ubiquitous attacking of character of people they know as nothing more than a name and avatar on the internet. Yes, I know, "welcome to life."
The problem seems to be that a discussion gets twisted into "winning" and "losing", which is ridiculous in most of the contexts in which this happens. What winning might mean to people varies, however; it could be crushing their opponent in humiliation, to start some sort of cult, or to just look cool. A discussion should be about sharing ideas and opinions, not deciding who is the winner. There's definitely a place for all of that, don't get me wrong, but these instances generally are not it. Proving people wrong on universally agreed upon facts? That's something else too, but attacking someone's intelligence or character is not going to help teach someone.
How exactly should people discuss something, then? Chances are if you're reading this, you're not a child in an adult's body just waiting for their next tantrum when the world doesn't go their way. Chances are most people do know how to discuss things civilly, to agree to disagree after awhile and move on with their lives. 'cus you know what, people who are confident in their knowledge and opinions have no reason to scream blasphemy at others. The people who can be confident in what they believe in, but also open enough to politely listen and discuss, maybe even learn something new? Those are special people, talk to them. Listen to them. Listen to everyone, decide what's best for you, and if prompted? Be kind with your words, and you'll be surprised by the impact they could have.
But what do I know, everyone seems to like a drama show better than civil discourse. :v Some wild misinterpretation of the "human spirit" or some such.
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As someone who just today decided to leave a community that I've been (passively) a part of for like four years because of how toxic it gets, I honestly think there are a lot of cases where you just can't. A lot of people approach a topic with their minds already very made up on it, and no amount of discussion/argument is going to change that. Because no one really approached the subject to discuss it, in a sense.
(relatedly I try to hold to the maxim that the only person who can ever really change your mind on anything is you. Someone can present a totally logical and well-explained case but ultimately they're not the one who has to convince me of it--I am. And if things are heated then that's usually only going to happen after the argument, not in the middle of it.)
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actually I probably worded that last bit poorly because pronouns. I'm saying that's how people in general are, not that it's some rule I try to enforce for myself. We're the least inclined to change our opinions when we're in the middle of defending them.
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Because no one really approached the subject to discuss it, in a sense.
Exactly. They came to win, for whatever reason they have. Mind you I'm not invalidating any of those reasons, just... pick your battles, if you choose to fight. This all stems from perception, though. People don't want to lose face because we're taught that it's one of the worst things that can supposedly happen to us. The happiest people don't seem to give a damn. :v You're right though, when we're the most heated, our brains just seem to shut down.
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Yeah. And it's hard to point fingers, because I'm sure that we all have things we're not going to budge on. But it still leads to these kinds of impossible situations where reasonable discussion or middle ground are just not going to occur.
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I'm one of those who will argue on the internet (as you well know). My way of thinking at least as far as my career goes is that the day I stop questioning everything is the day I need to find a new line of work. As a behaviourist, I need to be constantly reassessing my methods and knowledge in order to stay current and work with a variety of dogs. I wish more on the internet would have the same outlook.
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Another "learning from discussions" viewpoint, which is probably the most positive way to look at things. Well, arguing for you, with your penchant for butting heads and all. :P I'm so glad you stay away from our forums, lmao.
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From what I hear, I'm glad to stay away lol. Can't argue with some people and thankfully that's what the ignore button is for.
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Agreed. Personally, when I think of having an argument or discussion on the internet, I tend to write similarly to how I write argumentative essays for school. Clearly state your opinion, and back it up with examples and facts, while staying calm and professional-like. I always try to put emotions aside and rely entirely on the facts (unless of course the other person starts going on a rampage and is extremely stubborn, then I may show a bit of annoyance). I guess that comes from having a scientific mind, and also being a big fan of Sherlock Holmes; facts and observation (especially the little details) mean everything to me. So if somebody is able to show me facts that contradict my opinion, I am willing to reconsider my stance. There are a couple topics where I cannot be swayed, but I will still accept other views without making personal attacks. But when I see almost everyone else on the internet having flame wars and fighting with the maturity - and sometimes mental capacity - of eight-year-olds, I can't help but laugh and be disappointed in humanity. I guess that's one of the costs of anonymity.
(PS: It helps when people actually put forth an effort to use proper English spelling, grammar, punctuation, etc. If somebody types like a middle-schooler I can't really take them seriously, especially if it's so bad I can't understand what they are trying to say.)-
and sometimes mental capacity - of eight-year-olds
Hey now, that's insulting to the eight year olds. ;3 I don't mind typing errors, except when the person calls someone else out for their errors but fails miserably on recognizing their own. Nobody likes hypocrisy, though.
See, the things is, I like people as much as I dislike them. I'm not misanthropic, but I'm not in love with others. It's ironic that for someone who researched altruism in certain animals, among other things, that I don't really believe it exists as a pure concept. It's why I've come to be almost infatuated with lions, with their "do whatever it takes" to survive and dominate mentality. I mean, some will go picking for a fight for their own reasons and survival, sure, but generally they don't give a damn about anyone else save for their closest of allies. Doesn't mean they can't co-exist or can't be friendly, but they just don't care, and that's where I'm at these days. It's liberating to not feel like I have to match someone else's pace in a fruitless endeavor, yet still have great conversations with people who want to discuss and trade ideas.
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Oh, my apologies to the eight-year-olds. I understand a couple typos here and there, but when someone whose mother language is English consistently misuses their, they're, and there; your and you're; or just misspells a bunch of words and uses caps lock, I can't help but think a little less of them. That's just a pet peeve of mine though, I admit to being a bit of a grammar Nazi (although I don't actually call people out on it, it just irritates me a lot).
Ah, well I differ there. I am a pretty big misanthropist. We went over altruism in my ecology class last semester, and I've decided I don't believe in pure altruism either. I don't know much at all about lions, but they sound pretty cool from what you've said. I think I can relate to them a bit too.
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I wouldn't say we differ much aside from the intensity of dislike, just some of my internal wiring seems programmed to put myself at risk for the benefit of others. I don't really... control it, it just happens. I think some of my friends, even from college a year or two ago, would be shocked to see who I am today. I'm not the same pushover who tried so hard to be accepted by being useful.. I wonder how different my experiences would've been the last few years had I learned to be like that sooner.
Though I just laugh when I see pictures of lions with the word "integrity" in huge letters, as if the two are associated. They have anything but. They aren't noble, they aren't fair, and they don't care. Whatever it takes, which is admirable in its own right. Those people never seemed to have taken Ecology before. xD
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As much as I hate the human race, I still always end up being nice to people. I kinda hate myself for it, but I guess it's because my mother taught me right. I think I inherited a little bit of her "help others" gene, haha. But maybe I also do it because I want to feel useful. I do have a big problem of feeling useless/worthless, but that's a whole other conversation. It would be interesting to see how things would've played out in the past if we could give our younger selves the knowledge we have now.
Haha, that makes me think of how people generally think owls are wise, but they actually have very small brains. Funny how wrong some stereotypes are, but people have no idea.
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I think I'd admire humans for the same traits if they didn't try so hard to pretend they were above it all. The superiority complex, when in reality we're anything but, is what seems to tweak me. When someone's condescending to others, it tweaks me. Whatever high people get off of their behavior is foreign to me.
Being useful isn't inherently bad, it's just that it gets taken advantage of. It's a survival tactic in multiple ways, when you don't have all the other things going just right for you. Be useful to yourself instead, yeah?
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What is this madness you are spewing out here !?
j/kMost discussions I see turn into shitfests, so I tend to avoid them on the internet...
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In my opinion, it depends.
The internet seems to think that if they show their hatred or disgusting opinions in polite language, this elevates them above people using more harsh, direct language to cut the crap and make a direct point. And it works! People get away with sexist/racist/phobic views all the time - "polite filth".
Example:
"I just think that black people should behave differently if they don't want to be judged."
"Get that shit out of here, you racist asshole"And the second guy deserves a pile-up? But that was an honest, cathartic response!
When people espouse destructive, often passive-aggressive sentiments, you NEED to give it no patience and no politeness. Too many creepy people have learned and gotten away with that kind of discourse - tone policing. As if being angry invalidates your response.
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I think angry is fine, welcome even, and yeah I'm an advocate of cutting the crap out. I don't think attacking someone's character, whether politely or angrily, is acceptable. There's a huge difference between anger and being completely on the defensive when the situation doesn't call for it. In your example, both people should get their asses handed to them, definitely.
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You sound like you just discovered Tumblr.
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More like Tumblr users keep discovering Weasyl.
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You say that like it's a bad thing! ;o I came from tumblr, AND NOW I SHALL POUR MY TOXINS ALL OVER WEASYL~ -rolls over the forum-
I've more or less learned to skim over useless arguments of others, but if I happen to get involved in one personally (which doesn't happen often) I throw my 2 cents in and leave it at that, or I feign ignorance. Not the best options, but I dislike conflict. :3
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Oh god there's Moogle fur all over. ;c Time to burn it all!
I keep getting pulled into them because I'm either trying to answer a site related question that's mixed into them, or because when I tell someone to cut it out, I get personally attacked (and automatically get assumed that I'm going to power abuse ban them because I'm staff. wat?). I don't get involved anywhere else on the internet because I have no reason to, I sincerely don't care what most people think. Let them live however they want, as long as it doesn't affect me.
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Is it sad that I read this journal and know exactly what thread in what forum youre talking about? I remember reading throught the pages a week or so ago and seeing the same users pitch fights over and over.
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It's not just the Weasyl forums, it's a reoccurring theme wherever I look online... although yes, stuff from the forums and mainsite were on my mind when creating this journal. Anything less vague than that and I'd probably have to mod my comments here for a callout, heh.
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yeah, I see it a lot in other places too, but that was the first to come to mind. And it's understandable, gotta stay neutral and professional about it all since in a staff spot.
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Oh yeah? W-well, your face is dumb!
Just kiddin'. XD Good read!! -
This is like a new phenomenon to me because when I used to be active in communities with forums and art boards and all, opinions were respected and not shoved down someone's throat. That, and people never felt the need to list all their mental disorders, identity crises, and psychotic triggers on their profiles as a warning to everyone that they're complete tools. We learned those things through conversation and years of it. It's hard to find true socialization nowadays without the topics being heavily controlled.
I honestly believe it's some new form of internet culture where apparently there's trauma around every corner and the only way to respect one another is to never talk about anything adults actually talk about. I've lost friends to their own inability to communicate, and left website based communities over it. This is real. We need to do something.
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Another intelligent response with points I wish I had thought of. Pretty sure you hit the nail on the head, we're in the age of individuality. The previous attempts at advocacy were for large swaths of people discriminated against for a common, inalienable feature, but today it's cool to be discriminated against for any reason you can think of, like a badge of honor. It's not about what you've done, it's only about who you are (or pretend to be). I'm not really sure what could be done about any of it, I imagine it's a cultural trend that will shift back the other way eventually once enough people are fed up with the attitude. I certainly will have no part in engaging with such people.
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I'm just glad that other people have a problem with this because I was scared I was the only one. :P
It's very easy to respect others' lifestyles and all, but the big problem is the naivete of the younger people adopting the habits I mentioned. It seems like they're gonna be that way forever, but they grow out of it once they're 18 and go into 'I'm a legal adult now I can start smoking and draw porn and become edgy and hardcore' mode. Then at 21 it happens again, along with the revelation that they were still babies at 18. I had that phase and know a bunch of people who did, but my age group at the time didn't have the self-esteem issues the next group down had. I think high school and college is a factor, and the concept of 'social justice', along with Tumblr like I saw you mention earlier. All ways for a young person to cry 'PERSECUTION!!!' when it's natural and most people figure out how to cope with it in some productive form. (Note I said productive, like creating art or writing about it, not raging when someone says 'gay' in the way they don't like.)
I always thought when I got older, the internet became way too packed with kids who are way too young to be here, or on certain websites. I find myself NEEDING to censor what I say all the time cuz an 11 year old might be looking and I don't want their mom emailing me. I looove smart kids, so I try to influence them against becoming that which I want to die fast and soon.
None of the teens I regularly see irl even know how to look you in the eyes. I got to them too late. :( Anyway yeah, I'm hoping it's a phase to be grown out of, and we have about four or five years til they all grow up. Hang in there. :D And laugh at their pain like ours was laughed at. They need it.
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Lmao, I thought you'd be much older than me (but I am), and we're both in our mid 20s. xD I wonder if previous generations have ever thought like this, and how similar the thoughts were if so... and I'm not talking like, large gaps between old and young, that's just a given.
The internet was pretty new for us growing up, and it's shocking to see kids nowadays grow up with such a different world than even we had. I think the rules have to be twisted by necessity, because what children get exposed to is so much more at such a faster pace. The emotional capacity is not there to handle it, and so they get swept up in the trends they collectively experience. Not that previous generations haven't, but not at this speed and connectivity. Where people were once accountable to a community, now there's the internet. Want to change your name, identity, everything about you? Effortless. When they cry, they no longer get told to shut the hell up and deal with it; they have the support of vast communities. We have society because at some point, we figured out it's better to band together than to all live individually as we please... we'll figure it out again.
/3am rant as he looks you in the eyes :P
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You should add me to skype, I never sleep at the right time! And we're obv on the same wavelength. We'll have much to talk about. :D
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Sure. :3 I'm pretty distracted often, just a fair warning, so don't get too frustrated at me (but you can horse collar me and be like, "Bitch you best be talkin' right now" and I'll listen) :v Late night before I pass out around 2-3am tops is usually quiet for me though, the dogs are asleep. I'll get ya sometime this evening, I don't know what's going on today.
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Bliss.in.Oblivion
The winner of a discussion is the one who learns the most from it :>