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Weasyl, you go too far by Dipper

As you may already know, I have decided to abandon my presence on Weasyl.

It is a shame, because they had a format and features I really liked. However, their administration has gone overboard in their policy enforcement. This is especially true for vocal musicians.

Two weeks ago I received the following message:

It has come to the attention of the staff that your gallery contains numerous submissions which violate the following Community Guidelines:

Section I.A.3, which states:

"You may incorporate the work of others into new works; however, the use of borrowed content must either abide by fair use or you must obtain permission from the copyright holder. The submission will be removed if it meets neither of these requirements. If it does meet these requirements, you must still cite the content’s source in the submission description."

Section II.F.2, which states:

"Must not sample clips longer than 30 seconds. The full length of the clip is considered, rather than the length of time it is looped for."

We ask the following from you:

Please provide proper citation or permissions granted for use of images for which you do not own.

Remove audio submissions which exceed 30 seconds and use copyrighted content you did not make yourself (example, the “Try Everything” song which uses copyrighted Disney music for the background singing).

I, of course, responded incredulously. A vocal musician either has to create their own backing track or sing a capella in order to comply? Seriously? And only after having the items up there for over two years do they now come and ask me to remove them?

Inquiring further, they said it was because of copyright concerns. Well, to be perfectly honest, even doing your own backing track or singing a capella is still a violation of the copyright of the songwriter. So, why allow covers at all?

In addition, why even make a backing track available if they aren't going to permit you to sing to it? Oh, sure, if I were to distribute it and charge people money to listen, yeah, that would get the attention of both the backing track company and the song writer. But in my experience, which goes back ten years, they don't bother with small potatoes, even if they do make a few bucks, which I never have, except in the form of an occasional donation. And while most backing track websites say something like the following:

"This website respects all music copyrights. All rights are reserved for the protected works reproduced on this website. Without permission, all uses other than home and private use are forbidden."

This obviously brings up the question, "What constitutes private?" Singing karaoke at a birthday party usually qualifies. Singing karaoke at a convention usually does not. But you don't find the RIAA coming after cons for hosting a karaoke night. A restaurant that features it once a week, sometimes. But not usually. But furthermore, even if it is used in a money making venture, it is the creator of the backing track, not the distributor (most backing track website share their tracks with each other. It's easier than reinventing the wheel) who complains, since they are the ones holding the copyright on the recording.

And this brings up the main point: It is the duty of the copyright holder to defend their copyright. It is NOT the duty of a website to do this preemptively. In other words, a website that hosts artwork, music, etc. does not have the duty to go searching through submissions to find items that violate copyright. This is primarily because it is a waste of time and energy that can be devoted to more important things. Every website I know of can, and will, respond to a complaint that a particular item is in violation of a copyright. They will usually NOT go searching for violators themselves.

And there is a very good reason for this. Not only is it not their duty to do so, they can make mistakes in judgement and take down submissions that are not copyright violations.

Which is exactly what happened to me. Since most of my submissions contained backing tracks, it simply was not worth my time and effort to remove them myself, ESPECIALLY when in doing so, I would disrupt my primary work, The Beach Bears Story, leaving it with huge gaps. It would be like going to the movies and sitting through fifteen minutes of disjointed scenes, and coming out wondering, "What the hell was that?"

So, I decided to simply let them take them down for me.

Which they did...but not all of them. In fact, most of the ones they took down were where the ICON was in violation of their guidelines.

The ICON!! I have searched the internet and found absolutely NO lawsuits involving icons except between big names like Apple and Microsoft. I frankly doubt that anyone would give a rats ass if someone decided to use their copyrighted item as a freaking icon for a piece of music, since it is the music, and not the icon being featured. Oh, if when asked they claimed they made it themselves, that's a different story. But to be expected to cite the source of icons when nobody gives a crap?

In addition, they took down submissions where the icon was clearly of things in the public domain: famous paintings, landmarks, even icons I created myself!

They took down every single one of my Christmas Carols, many of which not only contained icons clearly in the public domain, but the music itself was in the public domain! Much of it sung a capella!

This is why a website does NOT go preemptively protecting the copyright of someone else until such time as the copyright holder complains. Because they end up going too far and pissing people off needlessly.

Weasyl has gone too far. I refuse to put up with this crap, and have removed all submissions.

Weasyl, you go too far

Dipper

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  • Link

    This is really a shame. I agree with all your points.

    Aside from the music issue, Weasyl allows Rule 34, and fan art, including art of characters that are based on copyrighted character designs. I don't even allow this in my commissions TOS, as it's a clear violation of copyright which people have been prosecuted for. But somehow, violation of character design copyright is rampant and accepted within the furry fandom.

    I would be very curious to hear from Weasyl administration what the justification for this hypocrisy is. They take it upon themselves to police music copyright, but not visual arts copyright? Why? What is the difference? If sampling music is going to be banned, Rule 34, fan art and derivative character art needs to be banned, as well.

    If there isn't consistency across copyright enforcement policy, it's arbitrary and capricious which is arguably more dangerous than any actual copyright violation.

  • Link

    Thank you. Good to hear from a visual artist. The claim is that with characters, it is in a unique setting, so not covered by copyright. The claim the same with songs in which you do your own backing. Neither one is true. In the case of the second, it is still in violation, and many covers have been removed from YouTube, just as an example, for this very reason. In both cases, the copyright holder will usually not prosecute as it would produce very bad PR for them. In the case of music, they would get known to be people who want you to pay to even THINK about the song. Interestingly, the producers of Zootopia LOVE fan art and have featured it on Twitter by retweeting it.

    Now, I have been told that my submissions were brought to the attention of the admins by "a complaint". I suspect this was a complaint about 'Try Everything' since that was the ONLY song mentioned by name. My question is, 'Did the complaint come from Disney, the copyright holder?' If not, THEY HAVE NO GROUNDS!!

  • Link

    Reverb nation

    • Link

      I'm investigating that place now. Do you know what their policy and enforcement is with regard to covers? Do I have to explicly get permission of the songwriter and creator of the backing track to post?

      • Link

        I don't man. My buddy was creating legit new music and posting it there.

  • Link

    I have not really posted anything much on this website other an initial batch of my art to setup shop, becuase of horror stories like yours. People tend to think this website is better than FA. No its not. The administration here is as imperfect as FA administration. Also FA's new beta UI has allot of the key features I like about this website. So really I don't see the point of establishing a front here other than exposure to another audience.

  • Link

    Honestly you're only somewhat right. In the case of karaoke - I have a friend who runs a karaoke business, and he has to buy bulk licenses for all the song packs he gets. You can't just do it for free without a license. And it could be argued that 'private use' is not included when submitting to a website with thousands of users. As for the icon art; the art is copyrighted, whether it's 'featured' or not, it is something that could get you in trouble. Disney in particular is famous for going after even the tiniest of potatoes (such as a daycare using home-made Bambie vinyl stickers on their walls). No, Weasyl does not have to go through all of their content to find copyright violations. However, as they're hosting the work, there is the potential that they would get dragged into any lawsuit brought against a user for violating copyright. It is also clearly stated in Weasyl's rules that copyrighted imagery, music, writing, etc, is not allowed to be posted to the site, with the exception of clips as you mentioned. The water is murkier where things like covers and fan art are concerened - technically under copyright law such productions belong to the copyright holder, not the creator, but most media companies see fan art etc as something in their favor, to generate hype for their product or franchise (though it is fairly common for them to issue takedowns to creators they feel are besmirching the product, such as adult works of childrens' characters - see the Hasbro and Princess Molestia case). It sucks that after two years you finally got flagged and warned, but you were violating rules that entire time. In all likelihood someone just finally noticed and flagged it for the moderators to look at.

    If the body of your work revolves around using copyrighted content, then leaving is probably the best option. I am not sure where you could go, as nearly all media hosting websites have the same rules - as they're US copyright law. Good luck, though.

    • Link

      If you are a professional karaoke runner, yes, they would be expecting you to do it. That's usually an every night kind of thing, but then you are making money doing it, directly. That will usually draw the attention of the copyright lawyers.

      Now, I'm aware that technically, even an icon is a violation if you don't have the permission of the creator. But as far as I have ever seen, nobody has been hauled into court over an icon, except for Apple and Microsoft who were at each others' throats at times.

      But even singing a song you did not write that was written in the last 60 years is a violation of copyright if you did not pay the proper royalties for the song. But in reality, the likelihood that you will be prosecuted is virtually nil.

      With regard to Disney suing that day care center? They got SO much bad PR from that move that they backed WAY off on their pursuit of violations. Their time and effort is better spent on pursuing bootleggers. In point of fact, all of the fan art being drawn of Zootopia characters are technically violations of copyright. But they don't pursue it, because, a) it would cause severe backlash against Disney, and b) they are finding that in many cases it ENHANCES their product. In other words, it makes it more valuable. The directors are featuring really good fan art on Twitter all the time.

      But, as I have been informed, and the legal columns I have read about it indicate that a site that does not do anything about user provided content is better off NOT checking for copyright violations until such time as the copyright holder complains. This is due to a "safe harbor" provision in the 1998 DMCA law which says that if the website is unaware of the copyright violation, gets no direct financial benefit from the violation, and rectifies the violation in a timely manner after being notified, they cannot be sued.

      However, if they are actively seeking out violations of copyright unprompted, they are not only assuming a violation without proof (in other words, they can't know that the poster did not get permission), they are jeopardizing their "safe harbor" protection and could be sued for missing one.

      It just is not worth the risk.

    • Link

      I have also heard the argument used that if a site gets known for being lenient on copyright violations they could be sued. That's only in severe cases. If copyright holders are not issuing takedown notices, the site will not have a problem. If they are issuing takedown notices on a regular basis, the activity usually stops until a level of acceptability is reached, but that level has to be set by the copyright holders, not the site.

      • Link

        In this case it's less the site trying to use safe harbor, and more trying to enforce the site's rules. If you didn't agree with the upload policy you should not have gotten an account in the first place. That's far better than knowing the rules, flouting them, and then getting upset when you get called on it and leaving the site in a big dramatic huff.

        • Link

          You'd be right IF, and this is a big IF, the site policies were drastically different from those on SoFurry, InkBunny, and FurAffinity.

          However, they do not. The enforcement differs greatly, and that is what I am raising the stink about.

          • Link

            So... your problem isn't the rules, it's that they enforce their rules? Okay...

            • Link

              Let's try this again, shall we?

              Weasyl has a specific category for cover songs, yet won't allow you to use a purchased backing track to create that cover song. What sense does that make? Why have the category at all?

              • Link

                Because a cover song is meant to be fully covered, not karaoke. IE you are supposed to recreate the backing music yourself as well, such as on an acoustic guitar, or with an electronic music program.

                • Link

                  Then explain why the ones that I did a capella or where I created the backing myself were removed.

                  • Link

                    That I can't tell you. Probably a mod mistake from having to do bulk removals.

                    • Link

                      Sounds to me like a good argument for using a scalpel rather than a hatchet.

                      • Link

                        One could argue that it wouldn't have been an issue if you had removed things yourself as requested.

                        • Link

                          Okay, I want you to go back and read the post again. There seems to be several facts you are missing here:

                          1) I was never given a list of the posts in violation. I was expected to know which ones they were.

                          2) Without the list, I had to assume that was all of them, and with hundreds of posts, it was easier to have them remove them in bulk, since such tools are not given to the users.

                          3) It turns out they didn't even bother to remove all the ones they claimed were in violation, only one where they THOUGHT the ICON was in violation. And even then, they erred.

                          In other words, they took a hatchet to my posts, not a scalpel. Just tell me which ones are the problems, and let me fix them.

                          • Link

                            I will definitely allow they should've given you a list of the submissions in error. I have gotten one every time I've had problem like that.

                            However it could also be argued that you should know which of your submissions contain copyright violations.

                            It could also, also be argued that you should not have uploaded things that were in violation of the rules to begin with, especially since you were apparently aware of those rules before uploading.

  • Link

    weasyl,FA,sofurry,and ink bunny are ART SITES. Covers and parodies are forms of art. i agree this rule is STUPID. I'm sorry this happened to you :'(