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Yes, The Way We Talk About Women Is A Problem by Threetails

Yes, the way we talk about women is a problem.

I have to be honest about something: part of the reason I didn't transition sooner was because deep down, I had shit tons of internalized misogyny to deal with.

I grew up with a mother whose mental illnesses made her extremely emotionally unstable and gave her a cruel, vindictive streak. Early on I was taught by the men in my life to believe that that's just how women were. That's certainly how bad wives on TV shows acted, and how many men are socialized to see women: as an obnoxious pest who plays mind games and complains about not being appreciated. That is to say that the men in my life were not being mean-spirited by telling me that my mother was a "typical woman," but they were repeating a meme that was soaked deep into the culture and I had really no point of reference for any other view.

But I also grew up with the option of living life as a man, and confronted with these unlikable visions of womanhood I could never imagine myself as anything but a man. I began to see a woman as a fallen, dirty thing and in my pride I thought "I am not fallen and dirty, so I must not be a woman." I admired the Greeks and the Romans with their masculine ideals and came to see homosexuality as a morally superior form of love. From there my ideas descended into a morass of pseudo-classical homosexism.

Even when gender dysphoria began to hit, I still tried to love my homomasculine role as a gift, so much that I constructed a false identity around it. I had the perfect body to be a bear, and I found it surprisingly easy to bed cute guys who were looking for a big burly chub. It was such an ego boost to have a body type that so many guys actually preferred where I knew, if I lived as a woman, I would just be seen as fat and ugly.

As my dysphoria got worse, I felt like I needed to be cuter so I could get more guys to mount me instead, because I hated always being on top. I wanted to look more androgynous, or even become a fully passable "trap." But from my experience, "feminine" meant "petite," and I began to starve myself, setting limits of 1000 calories per day (sometimes going as little as 700) while purging with laxatives. I didn't think back then I could be beautiful without losing weight.

Only now, in hindsight, do I see just how much these attitudes have been normalized, and just how much damage they do when that's all you ever hear most of the time. I was completely at the beck and call of a culture that has surprisingly bitter contempt for women and I was none the wiser. Ultimately, had I not grown up in a culture that says women are irrational and vindictive, had I not lived in a culture that fetishizes masculinity as a superior virtue, had I not lived in a culture that puts so much emphasis on small, unhealthy bodies, I would have been saved so much trouble that I didn't even know I was in at the time. I thought I was just suffering for the sake of "the good fight" of defending masculine virtue when all I was doing was more damage to myself than I had to.

Yes, the way we talk about women is a problem. It's not cool to shame our bodies, our minds, and our existence. This isn't about "getting a thicker skin," this is getting to the heart of a culture that really needs to learn some respect and hold itself accountable for its attitude.

Yes, The Way We Talk About Women Is A Problem

Threetails

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    Ferret Jester

    I have to agree. There are so many cans and cants about gender and more in our society that shouldn't be there.

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    Kurk2288

    Modernist views and contemporary understanding of ancient cultures are often skewed and misconceived.
    Usually to fit a movements' views, and agendas.
    (For example the idea that anicent Greeks were flamboyantly homosexual, always naked, and "free")

    The Greeks and Romans were not a "homosexist" culture. If anything they were "homo-social".
    Only a -few- city states in ancient Greece allowed homosexual relationships, even after reaching "manhood".
    ie past the age of 20. Most city states, like Sparta, shunned or ridiculed men who had homosexual relations during their "manhood". Especially those who were the "receiving" partner.
    The Romans were even harsher, especially after becoming a Christianized nation...

    The Greeks (and some Romans) practiced what's called "pederasty" and most city states did NOT allow "sexual relationships",
    ie intercourse between mentor and mentee. It's NOT a form of "pedophilia" unless there was sexual intimacy involved.
    When young men grew up they were expected to do their "duties".
    Ie train for war, marry, have a family, provide food & wealth, fight in war, etc.
    Women also had their role and contributed to their respective city states, especially in the spiritual & religious sectors.
    ie passing down traditions, stories, mentoring the younger females, religious positions, preparing meals, etc.

    There is a reason why things were the way were, and are now. (other than "patriarchy this and patriarchy that")
    However that will take too much of my time to even discuss, at-least all of it.

    Now onto the whole "misogyny" is a problem in culture...

    Obese men are disregarded just as much as obese women. That's an issue of idealism & beauty in a culture.
    NOT AN ISSUE OF FEMININITY & MASCULINITY.

    Ever hear of the phrase "BBW" - big beautiful women. There are men who like women pudgy, chunky or even obese.
    Women aren't the only one's who face body & self-esteem issues, and no men do not "experience pain differently or less".
    "Misogyny" is just as much a problem as "Misandry" because we still like to pigeonhole men (and women) into traditional gender roles, and enforce culture through (negative) social control. ie discrimination, shunning, shaming, violence, threats,etc.

    I also think you're mis-using the word "gender-dysphoria". UNLESS you do feel like a "female trapped in a males body"
    Cultural ideas of masculinity & femininity are different from gender. (Ie, blue is for men and pink is for woman)
    You do NOT have to identify as male, female, genderfluid or agender to behave "masculine", "feminine", or lack thereof.
    "Masculinity" & "Femininity" is relative to the culture, or the nation you're living in...

    You're projecting your own personal experiences and views. As if it represent an entire culture, "masculinity" (and possibly the male demographic) as being the problem. That is not being objective. I could easily say "the way we speak about men" is an issue and thus make it one sided. OR "genderize" the real issues as if females are solely responsible and to blame...

    I could go on a tirade about "toxic femininity", and use it as a reason why most of the homeless are men-
    Why a lot of successful suicides are done by males, why men are manipulated and emotionally (and sometimes physically) abused... (I digress for now)

    I could do what you do and say... "women in my family, always put the men down", "the men in my life worked like horses and barely got to their see or raise their children", "fat or nerdy men were always disregard or made fun of by women because they weren't "masculine" enough."... (shall I go on?)

    The REAL is traditionalism, and the way WE (both men and women) behave, and enforce culture.
    Most traditionalist ideas and practices are outdated and have no place in the modern world.
    Lastly, mental health has been an issue for centuries, and is only getting worst in our urbanized world.

    • Link

      Threetails

      Briefly:
      The culture I was responding to was not "classical homosexism" but "pseudo-classical homosexism." That prefix "pseudo" should tell you all you need to know.

      Body image is a much bigger problem for women and the profusion of eating disorders among women and transsexuals is all the proof you need.

      Yes, I am a male-to-female transsexual. I do not need to be lectured on the meaning of "gender dysphoria."

      You want to talk about how so many suicides and homeless are men? I could easily reply with the fact that women who work just as hard earn 70 cents on the dollar compared to their male cohorts, or how despite making up about half the population women account for far less than half of the highest-earning positions.

      You can find more instances of misogyny of a more vicious nature in the media than you can of "toxic femininity" (which frankly sounds like a Limbaughism to me) and misandry. In fact, I challenge you to watch three hours of daytime TV with some critical thinking skills applied and see who is shown in a more negative light.

      As for projecting my experiences, I'm only sharing what many other trans and cis women have had to go through. You talk as if I'm experiencing this in a vacuum but I'm not; I talk to so many others who have the exact same things going on in their lives.

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    Kurk2288

    (English isn't my primary language)

    I want to apologize. I didn't know you were transsexual, and wasn't trying to "lecture" you on gender dsyphoria.
    I assumed you were talking about "gender expression", because I've been encountering "cis" people identifying as
    the opposite sex, when they actually should be using words like "masculine/feminine".

    As for Body image, its not just "a women's issue".
    Although more women suffer from anorexia than say gay and straight men.
    However men are likely to suffer from different body image related disorders. For example,
    Men are more likely to be obese than females, and suffer from permanent muscular-skeletal injuries from working out or lifting too much. Then there is steroid abuse (and the resulting heart attacks). Synthetic testosterone or hormone misuse
    (pills, boosters, injections, and supplements) which creates hormone dependencies on these drugs... (cutting it here)
    Men are also shamed for the size of their Wang and muscles, (and vice versa for women and their breast and buttocks.)

    The Gender Pay Gap is a myth. It doesn't take into account the differences in occupation, hours worked per week, and tenure.
    It only takes into account the average earnings of all men and all women working full-time...
    As for the highest earning positions, men and women tend to favor certain fields and lines of work.
    Men are more likely to go for and are better suited for riskier, hard skill and hard labor jobs.
    Check work related deaths and injuries, and lines of work. Women tend to go for social services and soft skill related work.

    Also, I WASN'T using male suicides, abuse and homelessness to compare "how much worst men have it".
    I was using it as a form of parody or satire on the whole "toxic masculinity" mantra with "toxic femininity)
    I'm not arguing over "who has it worst"... (Macho-ism is a better word for "toxic masculinity" btw)

    "I challenge you to watch three hours of daytime TV with some critical thinking skills applied and see who is shown in a more negative light." ~Threetails

    Hmm... Homer Simpson is portrayed as mentally handicap,
    Just got done watching courage the cowardly dog... Eustace Bagge gets physically battered and it's comical!
    Watched a war documentary about men getting conscripted in the Vietnam war, and good ole Soviet Russia
    There was a commercial portraying men as pigs at some bar, I think they were advertising condoms or beer. IDK.
    I'm not really going to continue, because frankly I don't rot my brain with TV. OR let the media feed on my insecurities.

    I'm not saying what you've experienced is a rare occurrence or anything like that. You're free to speak your mind.
    I did go a little overboard on my comment, but only because the journal felt one sided on the whole issue of culture and sexism
    Advertising media also thrives off of the insecurities of both sexes.

    I will repeat my from my last comment...
    "The REAL -issue- is traditionalism, and the way WE (both men and women) behave, and enforce culture.
    Most traditionalist ideas and practices are outdated and have no place in the modern world.