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WELP by Zrcalo

Shota discussion related to my tumblr post.
edited for callout. Which is not allowed.

Will edit this more sometime.

This is the reply from Fiz:
My deviantART page used to be littered with quotes people made against myself. I think that quote in particular was from some 4chan thread years ago. I literally had not edited my deviantART main page customization for a good 3-4 years until recently, because 1. it was in bad taste and 2. I honestly forgot about what was on the page.
So yes, it was an accusation. If you look at that archive.today page you were searching on, you can see more rude quotes like that made against me.
After reading the journal though, I need to point out a few things:
I'm not Weasyl's owner. Common misconception though.
Most, if not all of that stuff, was drawn before it became a legal grey area and later on, illegal depending on country. I'm talking 4-7 years ago.
I haven't drawn any of it in a long time or joked about it because I realized it was making people feel uncomfortable
Basically, I'm trying my best to keep that problematic behavior of mine back in the past, because I was just a huge asshole in more ways than one. Long story short, I realized of better ways to deal with the things I was going through than to lash out and be a jerk to people and gross people out. That said, I'll never deny that this stuff happened. I've never tried to hide how I used to act. I just wish people would give me a chance to see how I am now, but I also understand that I burned too many people too much so I can see why people wouldn't give me the time of day.
Also, I saw in some of the comments of the journal that people would be worried that I'd attract other shota-liking people to Weasyl and let them get away with posting that stuff on here. That's wrong, no one is exempt from the rules. If a violating submission isn't removed yet, it's because it was either not reported, or it was reported and the staff just haven't gotten the chance to check it out yet. And unfortunately, underage characters in sexual situation violations can take a bit longer to deal with, since they usually required a staff discussion due to the nature of the violation.
If you have any other questions, feel free to ask.
-Fiz
more about reporting it..
I've never been the co-owner, and I doubt I ever will be. All underage content reports need to be discussed with Admin staff to determine if it breaks our rules. Sometimes, submissions under a 'shota' tag do not appear underage at all. Sometimes people use it in place of terms like 'femboy' or 'twink'. Shota also doesn't necessarily mean underage as well. To quote Wikipedia:
"It can also apply to postpubescent (adolescent or adult) characters with youthful neotenic features that would make them appear to be younger than they are."
It's not always a cut and dry thing to deal with. It also needs to be known that if something isn't reported, the staff probably haven't seen it yet. We don't go searching for violations.
Also, if a submission with characters that look like adults, but you know for a fact the characters are underage, that also needs to be mentioned with evidence in a report, because otherwise we might not know.
So yeah, it really has nothing to do with what I drew or what I liked. We don't delete or let things slide based on what we like or dislike. Everyone has to follow the same rules.
Hope that clears some things up.
-Fiz

WELP

Zrcalo

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    MOVIN' TO DEVIANTART.

    unless someone can give me a few other sites to move to? Wysp looks interesting, but not my game.

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      nah. I got a better idea. Lets kick fiz out.

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        [3:17:31 AM] L C: I don't know what is wrong with /drawing/ shota
        [3:17:39 AM] L C: aside from it indicating an interest
        [3:17:44 AM] L C: that might not be fulfilled
        [3:18:01 AM] L C: which may be something that is part of a person, and to deal with it they draw art
        [3:18:14 AM] L C: I make art and porn of awful things but I don't do those things
        [3:18:34 AM] L C: I even like some rape porn while finding rape terrible
        [3:18:43 AM] L C: i think i like it in a horror porn way though
        [3:18:55 AM] L C: like, this is awful, I want to know what that awfulness is like
        [3:19:03 AM] Zrcalo: nod I draw stuff like that too.
        [3:19:14 AM] L C: But I don't know why /drawing/ cartoon porn of kids is bad.
        [3:19:27 AM] Zrcalo: but it bothers me when people intentionally draw it over and over to where it's all they do.
        [3:19:27 AM] L C: i mean it looks like thy ain't hiding this right
        [3:19:29 AM] Zrcalo: nod
        [3:19:36 AM] L C: they got fiz on the ygallery account
        [3:19:45 AM] L C: oh
        [3:19:59 AM] L C: why is that?
        [3:20:11 AM] Zrcalo: because it's not just porn. its an obsession.
        [3:20:16 AM] L C: yea that is what I thought
        [3:20:24 AM] L C: and if it is an obsession then?
        [3:21:02 AM] Zrcalo: then you gotta trust on that person's ...thinks of word ..
        [3:21:16 AM] Zrcalo: restraint
        [3:21:22 AM] Zrcalo: my brain is slow today
        [3:21:35 AM] Zrcalo: like... honestly? I write some really fucked up shit.
        [3:21:49 AM] Zrcalo: I don't post any of my porn, and I don't draw it because it's fucked up.
        [3:22:02 AM] Zrcalo: I like the horror aspect.
        [3:22:07 AM] L C: Don't you have some darkness about yourself [I had not read the lat few passages yet]
        [3:22:07 AM] Zrcalo: I like the torture aspect.
        [3:22:13 AM] L C: that is extreme
        [3:22:16 AM] Zrcalo: nod I'm pretty dark
        [3:22:17 AM] Zrcalo: yeah
        [3:22:21 AM] L C: and you have the restraint
        [3:22:23 AM] Zrcalo: yes
        [3:22:30 AM] Zrcalo: its worrisome when people don't.
        [3:22:31 AM] L C: so what about someone else
        [3:22:52 AM] Zrcalo: ?
        [3:23:07 AM] L C: You worry fiz does not have the restraint
        [3:23:17 AM] L C: are you just wanting people to know this
        [3:23:20 AM] Zrcalo: yes. because they kept making jokes about it and kept drawing it?
        [3:23:23 AM] Zrcalo: yes
        [3:23:30 AM] L C: so they can make up their minds, because most people aren't going to be reasonable
        [3:23:32 AM] Zrcalo: I actually hope fiz comes forward and apologizes.
        [3:23:36 AM] Zrcalo: nod
        [3:23:37 AM] L C: they [otehr people] are going to hate
        [3:23:49 AM] Zrcalo: hm..
        [3:23:54 AM] L C: you might have just hurt fiz real bad
        [3:23:59 AM] L C: and they might not deserve that
        [3:24:08 AM] L C: what if they have restraint
        [3:24:32 AM] Zrcalo: they'll prove who they are when they deal with this.
        [3:24:42 AM] Zrcalo: and then I'll have respect.
        [3:24:59 AM] L C: I figure they know this sort of thing could happen from liking that sort of thing and being open about it
        [3:25:11 AM] Zrcalo: yeah. it was .. pretty well open.
        [3:25:14 AM] L C: yes
        [3:25:17 AM] Zrcalo: I'm probably not the first one.
        [3:25:23 AM] L C: that is the thing, but all these people are going to get in a hype now
        [3:25:25 AM] Zrcalo: I also messaged fiz about it earlier.
        [3:25:28 AM] L C: good
        [3:25:33 AM] L C: did they respond
        [3:25:37 AM] Zrcalo: nope
        [3:25:44 AM] L C: oh dear
        [3:25:51 AM] L C: they don't know yet
        [3:26:10 AM] L C: what did you message them on
        [3:26:49 AM] Zrcalo: the thing is... the hype is kinda needed. it'll show people how fiz handles situations like this, and how weasyl handles situations like this.
        [3:26:56 AM] Zrcalo: it'll also be tell-tale of the community.
        [3:27:26 AM] L C: i feel like I need to say something on that journal but I don't know what
        [3:27:36 AM] L C: i kinda want to copy and past this log
        [3:27:42 AM] Zrcalo: don't feel restricted by our friendship.
        [3:27:50 AM] Zrcalo: nod thats fine by me.
        [3:27:54 AM] L C: i would't feel restricted
        [3:28:06 AM] Zrcalo: thats good.

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          Also I want to add, and I ain't seen everything drawn I don't have a y gallery, but when you got fictional characters, no body is actually getting hurt. The underage characters don't even have the same consent problem as real kids, unless you gave them that quality. You can make a characters mind however you want.

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            The problem is; wether or not Fiz has restraint, if the people who have less restraint are allowed to come through onto Weasyl and form a community of dangerous people, it's still going to be the spreading of a serious issue throughout a community that has underage members. Which puts Weasyl in some pretty deep water.

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              Not only that, but even if fiz isnt "into that", many people who view fiz's work ARE. Which brings in a nasty crowd who thinks they can get away with things.

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                This is my point exactly!
                Not only is it bad for weasyl's reputation, it's encouraging an activity which is ILLEGAL.

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                  Hang on it is illegal to draw shota? That was brought up somewhere but I ain't clear on this. Is shota illegal? or are you talking about actual child porn which it absolutely illegal.

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                    shota PORN is illegal.
                    drawing 12 year olds or kids is not.
                    But if you draw porn of them, it is.
                    teenagers are a grey area, but to keep a website under legal grounds, all porn on said site needs to have characters at the age of 18.
                    its a massive grey area, but if its an image of a 40 year old man having rape sex with a 10 year old, I think that counts as illegal.

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                      Did that change in the last couple years and, hang on, how can these other websites have images posted that are clearly shota? Do they all have some text-only disclaimer under the image that its actually 18+ or something, while when you look at it, it's clearly underage?

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                        Yes, y! Gallery does that! And in fact people have started adding those types of disclaimers here too. Some of the content I reported still exists because of that despite shota as one of the images tags.

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                    It's illegal by state law but the law that says it's illegal (if it's "obscene" and transported over state lines, by common carrier, etc) the law was considered unconstitutional.
                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_status_of_cartoon_pornography_depicting_minors#United_States

                    Underage cartoon pornography is not illegal in the US as a whole but it is a hot button issue. Since there's no scientific basis as to why we should ban it I'm not really against it.

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                      you didnt read all of it. The first law was struck down. Then another one was enacted, and a guy went to prison for 20 years and it still stands.

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                        Which one was that though? It seems most of these cases are still cases state by state, with differing outcomes, some of which were outright dismissed and others ruled as unconstitutional.

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                          I made a report on this yesterday while extremely tired, so I was too out of it to feel comfortable posting at the time. I am going to post it now:


                          Nov 4 2014

                          (I am compiling this while I should be asleep. I have been up all night and I am extremely tired.)

                          tl:dr: It's complicated.


                          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_status_of_cartoon_pornography_depicting_minors#United_States
                          "In 2002 the United States Supreme Court ruled in Ashcroft v. Free Speech Coalition that the Child Pornography Prevention Act of 1996 (CPPA) was facially invalid in prohibiting virtual or cartoon child pornography" ... "The CPPA made all virtual child sex depictions illegal without regard to whether the speech was protected or not, so that part of the statute was struck down as facially invalid."

                          "part"
                          I did not investigate what part.

                          Also, it looks to me that there was /another/ law. But that parts of it have been deemed unconstitutional. PROTECT Act of 2003

                          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_status_of_cartoon_pornography_depicting_minors#United_States

                          "In response to Ashcroft v. Free Speech Coalition, Congress passed the PROTECT Act of 2003 (also dubbed the Amber Alert Law) and it was signed into law on April 30, 2003, by then president George W. Bush.[51] The law enacted 18 U.S.C. § 1466A, which criminalizes material that has "a visual depiction of any kind, including a drawing, cartoon, sculpture or painting", that "depicts a minor engaging in sexually explicit conduct and is "obscene" or "depicts an image that is, or appears to be, of a minor engaging in...sexual intercourse...and lacks serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value". By its own terms, the law does not make all simulated child pornography illegal, only that found to be obscene or lacking in serious value."

                          (Oh goodie, George Bush signed this.)

                          "However, in the 2008 Christopher Handley case, a judge overturned parts of the PROTECT Act as unconstitutional..."

                          "Currently, such depictions are in a legal grey area due to parts of the PROTECT Act being ruled unconstitutional on a federal level; however, laws regulating lolicon and shotacon differs between states; several states have laws that explicitly prohibit cartoon pornography and similar depictions (such as video games in the state of New Jersey), while others usually have only vague laws on such content; in some states, such as California, such depictions specifically do not fall under state child pornography laws,[57] while the state of Utah explicitly bans it.[58]

                          Due to the fact that the definition of obscenity differs between states, the legality of lolicon and shotacon depends on the community; in several states, there are clauses that state that for something to be deemed obscene, real harm must be done or the child depicted must be someone that exists in real life, while other areas may specifically allow unrealistic "cartoon" depictions but prohibit more "life-like" depictions. Some states may have heavy penalties on such material but only ban depictions of minors under 16 years of age (Arizona and New Jersey), while others may decide to ban it altogether."

                          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PROTECT_Act_of_2003

                          "Prohibits computer-generated child pornography when "(B) such visual depiction is a computer image or computer-generated image that is, or appears virtually indistinguishable from that of a minor engaging in sexually explicit conduct; (as amended by 1466A for Section 2256(8)(B) of title 18, United States Code).
                          Prohibits drawings, sculptures, and pictures of such drawings and sculptures depicting minors in actions or situations that meet the Miller test of being obscene, OR are engaged in sex acts that are deemed to meet the same obscene condition. The law does not explicitly state that images of fictional beings who appear to be under 18 engaged in sexual acts that are not deemed to be obscene are rendered illegal in and of their own condition (illustration of sex of fictional minors)."

                          • "The law does not explicitly state that images of fictional beings who appear to be under 18 engaged in sexual acts that are not deemed to be obscene are rendered illegal in and of their own condition (illustration of sex of fictional minors)."*

                          Hmm

                          "does not explicitly state"
                          But also does not explicitly exclude.
                          What is the significance of that passage?

                          "On April 6, 2006, in United States v. Williams, the Eleventh Circuit Court of Appeals ruled that one component of the PROTECT Act, the "pandering provision" codified at 18 U.S.C. § 2252A(a)(3)(B) of the United States Code, violated the First Amendment."
                          see here, there is too much to reasonably copy paste: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PROTECT_Act_of_2003#Application_of_the_Act


                          Also

                          What is obscenity? http://en.wikipedia.org

                          "An obscenity is any statement or act which strongly offends the prevalent morality of the time.[1]"

                          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller_test
                          "The Miller test (also called the Three Prong Obscenity Test) is the United States Supreme Court's test for determining whether speech or expression can be labeled obscene, in which case it is not protected by the First Amendment to the United States Constitution and can be prohibited."

                          "The Miller test was developed in the 1973 case Miller v. California.[2] It has three parts:

                          Whether "the average person, applying contemporary community standards", would find that the work, taken as a whole, appeals to the prurient interest, [Prurient: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/prurient]

                          Whether the work depicts or describes, in a patently offensive way, sexual conduct specifically defined by applicable state law,

                          Whether the work, taken as a whole, lacks serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value.[3]"

                          What a bunch of squishily defined, subjective, puritanical, outdated crap. Sounds like a whole lot of we-don't-like-it-so-you-can't-have-it-(and-we-are-going-to-ruin-your-life-for-it).

                          Also I am curious to know how they decide "artistic" value.

                          This is linked at the bottom of the Miller Test article.
                          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artistic_merit
                          Look at the lack of citation in this article.
                          Even so, the writer claims " In general, rigid criteria for artistic merit tend to fall apart fairly rapidly and the preferred standards for artistic merit vary across time and place."

                          Thank you to whoever, for reading this long-ass on the spot research post I was compelled to produce.

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                            It pretty much is. If you're interested you should also look up the Cambria List which was in response to obscenity. Cambria is the porn industry's best lawyer and he analyzed and figured out what the courts might deem obscene. Things are listed such as gay and lesbian porn, interracial porn, and other things we wouldn't think should be illegal. But you have to know a man who went by the moniker of Seymore Butts actually was taken to court because the lesbian fisting porn he was selling was considered obscene (he reached a plea agreement).

                            Now I am pretty sick myself of the people who are like DESTROY ALL SHOTACON and trying to justify it by rubbing these laws in my face. I am pretty sure they would be calling injustice if they knew these laws also enforced racism, homophobia, transphobia, and anything that would offend a jury (which doesn't take much). It's just cutting off the nose to spite the face.

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                          Oh also that does not include the alleged court case were someone went to prison for 20 years but I could probably find that as I saw somethings of that sort while researching about the actual /legality/.

                          Hmmm:

                          Christopher Handley
                          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Handley
                          ctrl+f "years"
                          in the footnotes a link to:
                          www.sankakucomplex.com/2008/10/24/american-faces-20-years-over-loli-manga/

                          "he faces a prison sentence of up to 20 years if convicted under the PROTECT Act."

                          "if"

                          Article date: Date: Oct 24, 2008

                          back to wikipedia:

                          "Judge Gritzner was petitioned to drop some of the charges, but instead ruled that 2 parts of the PROTECT Act criminalizing "a visual depiction of any kind, including a drawing, cartoon, sculpture, or painting" were unconstitutional. Handley still faces an obscenity charge.[5] The motion was initially heard on June 24, 2008,[6] but was not widely publicized prior to the Fund's involvement. CBLDF leader Neil Gaiman remarked on how this could apply to his work The Doll's House, saying, "if you bought that comic, you could be arrested for it? That’s just deeply wrong. Nobody was hurt. The only thing that was hurt were ideas." He then initiated a perfume sales campaign to raise funds for Handley's legal defense.[7][8]

                          Handley was convicted in May 2009 as the result of entering a guilty plea bargain at the recommendation of Chase, under the belief that the jury chosen to judge him would not acquit him of the obscenity charges if they were shown the images of question.[9]"

                          None of the information I linked /confirms/ he faced /20/ years.

                          Second option: "Dwight Whorley"
                          "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_status_of_cartoon_pornography_depicting_minors#United_States"
                          ctrl+f "years" searching for twenty or 20, many times uncovers a link to
                          http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2009/01/07/20-years-for-loli-manga-%E2%80%9Cvictims-don%E2%80%99t-have-to-exist%E2%80%9D/
                          which is not about Whorley far as I can see. It does not give he man's name.

                          2005 is relevant.

                          "Clouding the issue further, the man apparently also received unambiguously illegal photographs of underage sexual conduct."

                          Well, that might also have something to do with it.

                          "All this resulted in a jury convicting him of 74 offences, including receiving obscene materials, receiving obscene visual representations of underage sex, receiving child pornography and sending and receiving obscene emails. His sentence of 20 years was the maximum possible."

                          "The notorious PROTECT Act of 2003, which permits arbitrarily stripping material of its First Amendment protections if it can be judged obscene according to the criteria of the Miller Test, was instrumental in securing these convictions; in fact this represents the first successful conviction under it."

                          this article links to the one I linked above involving Christopher Handley

                          searching again "Dwight Whorley"

                          http://www.ca4.uscourts.gov/opinions/Published/064288.P.pdf
                          240 divided by 12 is 20. 20 years:

                          "Dwight Whorley was convicted of (1) knowingly receiving
                          on a computer 20 obscene Japanese anime cartoons depicting
                          minors engaging in sexually explicit conduct, in violation of
                          18 U.S.C. §
                          1462; (2) knowingly receiving, as a person previ-
                          ously convicted of receiving depictions of minors engaging in
                          sexually explicit conduct, the same 20 anime cartoons, in vio-
                          lation of 18 U.S.C. §
                          1466A(a)(1); (3) knowingly receiving,
                          as a person previously convicted of receiving depictions of
                          minors engaging in sexually explicit conduct, 14 digital pho-
                          tographs depicting minors engaging in sexually explicit con-
                          duct, in violation of 18 U.S.C. §
                          2252(a)(2); and (4)
                          knowingly sending or receiving 20 obscene e-mails, in viola-
                          tion of 18 U.S.C. §
                          1462. Imposing a sentence that departed
                          upward from the recommended Sentencing Guidelines range,
                          the district court sentenced Whorley to 240 months’ imprison-
                          ment."

                          The stupidity of this reminds me of witch trials.

                          I did not read enough in my opinion, to verify there was no further text that altered this sentence to another number of years. I think this is good enough.

                          Also, if this is actually him, as I can only find three instances of this image: http://bentcorner.com/wp-content/uploads//2008/12/013747-03.jpg

                          For the love of fuck they aught to just let the guy have his fake kid porn @.@ This guy must be one of the damned of the earth ;-; Like how the fuck could you better manage you fetish than to look at some ///fake/// kid porn. I didn't uncover that they found him to have any real kid porn, but I didn't check thoroughly. I feel really bad for people with this fetish that manage it fine and then get their lives further destroyed by a bunch of people that aught to mind their own damn business. Its like a curse to have this fetish. Sex is a huge part of most human being's existences. Anyone that has this fetish is already going to be psychologically screwed up because they can't act on it, and if they do, they screw someone else up. Either way, someone is getting screwed up. They are going to get screwed up if they get caught doing something to a real kid, as the law is going to take their life away. There is no winning if there is an actual action taken. So why not let someone have their fake kid porn? Because otherwise, what is going to happen then? You can't vent. They got this fetish, to my knowledge, no matter what. Maybe there is something I don't know about how fetishes work, but I think, if you stuff that away, its going to torment you some other way. Someone that has this fetish has problems period, because someone else is going to give problems to them. I am looking at this independent of fault. I have no idea the internal state of a person that likes underage stuff, what they deal with. As you don't hear much about what they deal with. You hear about the effects of child abuse. And everyone hates the pedophile, and there is a fear reaction to even considering you might say something empathetic about them. Empathy does not mean supporting or condoning an action they take against someone real, it means understanding their subjective state and their experience. They don't talk about this with people much, because it is such a high risk to do so. because people /hate/ and /fear/ this. Thus, I don't know what its like being one. I haven't gotten to talk about this much. They are, it would seem often quiet about having interest in underage stuff. Because things like this journal happen.

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                            Also I have read The Doll's House and that pretty plainly falls under having artistic merit to me.

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                        See my comment added.

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              Underage porn is actually banned here, right? The content is not here, if that is so, the /content/ is not attracting those folks to the site. instead we have one /person/ here, who is in question. There are probably many many people here into shota, who do not post because they can not. But no one is coming here to POST shota right? Are you concerned because a /staff member/ is into it, and I might know why that is alarming but I'm not going to assume you can tell me.

              Oh, I see Zr's comment below: "Not only that, but even if fiz isnt "into that", many people who view fiz's work ARE. Which brings in a nasty crowd who thinks they can get away with things."

              So while the shota content might not be here, people that follow Fiz from other sites that follow Fiz for the shota, might also follow Fiz here, bringing in a group of people, of which some of those might be the bad variety. I can see why that is a concern. I don't yet know, or know how to tell, if it is actually a real threat or if its a fear alone that just seems reasonable by concept. How many people herr draw shota, that we don't know draw shota? Do we want to kick them all out as they are found? Does Fiz being an admin make their being here somehow more of an issue?

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                there's a lot of undeleted shota pictures on weasyl....

                https://www.weasyl.com/submission/760353/ben-put-that-away
                https://www.weasyl.com/submission/540608/the-shota
                https://www.weasyl.com/submission/485202/wip-shotaboy-gangbang
                https://www.weasyl.com/submission/355666/nff-cow-boi-redux-by-mikewulf
                https://www.weasyl.com/submission/102235/unnamed-and-unnamed

                the issue is, weasyl can get into legal trouble for hosting these things. They can even be shut down. So the fact that fiz is drawing these things and attracting these kind of people puts weasyl at risk because of lax moderation and a large crowd.

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                  Well, those are tagged with shota, and if shota means under 18, and this site does not allow under 18, I need to hear an explanation as to why those are still there. These were flagged, were they? Are these the images I read about, in another journal a while back, that had been flagged?

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                    The exact images?

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                      I mean if there are 798572958723952 things on here tagged that and its not supposed to be here, there is a notable conflict, anyway but knowing if those are the exact ones makes some other things clearer for me.

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                    Shota does not have to mean the characters are under 18. Just that they are youthful (like twinks).

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                      "It can also apply to postpubescent (adolescent or adult) characters with youthful neotenic features that would make them appear to be younger than they are." Confirms the Great Wiki.

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                        Pretty much. I actually like adult shota since most all of them are femguys. <3

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                          It's not about what people tag their shit as. It's about a person who drew several pictures of a 10 year old being raped.

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                            I have to wonder why the images were relevant enough to link to, then.

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                            The images as part of the callout though didn't really deal with any ten year olds? One of them has a birth date as 2000 and that's the only valid one out of that group (and they will probably deal with it if it's reported and pointed out).

                            Unless you are talking about fiz's art, which is not on this website so I don't think you can argue that weasyl has a pro-cub stance.

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            problem was, most of these characters werent their own. It was fanart of already established characters.

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              And character or not, the subject depicted in such a manner is portrayed as a child, below the age of consent and/or sexual maturity. On top of that, Fiz seems to be joking about the problematic nature of such art and the various implications it has in society.

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                it really mimics an abuser's perspective...
                "haha. here's this weak puny thing. watch me as I destroy it"

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                " On top of that, Fiz seems to be joking about the problematic nature of such art and the various implications it has in society." Are you saying that because of the quote : "'kid fucker? Dunno.'"
                I guess because of how I am that went over my head. Well, Fiz'll see this is something that might make people uncomfortable/might reflect something about their attitude and, we'll see. At this point I would have to hear from Fiz so I'm going to stop talking for now

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                  you should really look at the pictures. I know you cant see them with the ygallery thing, but you should see them before commenting on them.

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                    I edited the above to mention I saw some you direct linked and they pinged me, but that I am not sure why Fiz likes that. At this point I got to see what Fiz says.

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                      It got pushed way the hell down the page so, ahem, I edited the above but it slid down the page.

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              I take established characters and I make their minds different. Anyway I'mma shut up about this until Fiz gets in here and tells us what Fiz actually thinks. I just wanted to say my bit about this sort of thing-in-general as I see people getting burnt all the time and , well, let Fiz explain how Fiz is as I don't know them very well at all. I don't know.

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                thats okay. Its also getting a lot of the potential viewers' questions out of the way as well. and having a nice debated discussion instead of flinging shit at each other.

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                  Yes. It is, so far, an extremely civil beginning to a potential furry drama explosion. Let's see if it stays that way.

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            I mean, apart from not being able to see things on y gallery (and thank you for offering me your account but I don't like logging into other folks accounts for reasons) to see if anything ping me as messed up -- an then like i said, you can even like "messed up" for reasons that aren't awful -- I'm just not seeing this as a problem. You can make the kid characters think however you want because they are characters, you can give them adult minds, you can be an underage character yourself that's with another kid so the age gap isn't any different, and I don't have this kink to know why someone is into that but I am pretty sure from all the things I am into that its a complex issue and that there are many versions that are not malevolent. I think I've just talked with enough people that have different kinks, many of which get a lot of hate, when I know those folks are not bad people and I know detail on what they like and why thy like it and how they conduct themselves. This topic is a hot button -- liking (drawn) shota, etc. And I am afraid for those that are not actually doing anything wrong, getting lumped in with those that are, in a flash, because the topic makes people so automatically uncomfortable and idk what.

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              You do make a valid point, but please don't discount that grey areas can and will exist, particularly in the context of sexual fantasy. What may be fantasy-only can still be a potential reality for many; this is what makes me uncomfortable about the situation.

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                Naw I understand the uncomfortableness. When I see certain things people make I get uncomfortable. But I also know things I do make people uncomfortable. it's hard to tell what to think sometimes. This is a /grey issue/. I just want to point out to people that happen into this journal/post, that it isn't clear cut.

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              The problems start when you have a group of people doing it. Or are surrounded by people who encourage it, even if its a bad behaviour.

              For an example... lets say I get off to kicking dogs. Kicking dogs is bad, and it's animal abuse. I would never kick a dog because of that.
              But if I surround myself with people who talk about kicking dogs, then draw themselves kicking dogs, then fantasize about kicking dogs, then I'm thinking about kicking dogs more than I should... and therefore am more likely to kick a dog for my own satisfaction. .. because.. if other people are doing it, why shouldnt I? and it escalates.

              Getting off to horror for horror's sake is not the same as fantasizing about diddling kids.
              You can always tell the horror pictures from the others.

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                Mmm, agreed.

                I mean, I'll be honest. I like horror movies. I like discussions of death and when I'm angry or upset I have violent - even homicidal - thoughts. It's part of human nature and I have to accept that.

                But I've seen a dead body in real life. I was there in the room with it. It's not a pretty sight, or smell. And I don't want to end up in a state of mind where seeing a corpse again becomes an apathetic - or even enjoyable - experience.

                Bringing it back to the topic of child abuse and nonconsensual sex - if someone's fantasising actually leads to pedophilia, when the child survives that abuse it can mentally scar them for life and possibly lead them to repeat the same behaviour to another victim, allowing the problem to continue untreated and grow into a much bigger issue.

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                I am starting to get too tired to make good replies. I tried but its not up to my standards. Basically this is worth considering.

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                  However that form of argument in the center paragraph makes me cautious.

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            (Edit: I saw a few images that were direct linked and also I had seen part of two of these in the tumblr post. Where non-con was combined with this, and that has pinged me, but also, like I said, I make some messed up stuff. I don't know /why/ someone likes something like this.)

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    We've never met, but hi. I hope you don't mind a few thoughts here.

    I'm concerned that you may be making some unfortunately dangerous assumptions about someone you don't know beyond their fetishes, which are personally upsetting to you.

    What in particular leads you to believe that real criminals (in this case, people who molest children) are bred from such communities - and that this happens with such propensity that it's in society's best interest that they don't exist at all? I am genuinely curious where this comes from.

    I might actually instead propose that having a safe outlet for potentially dangerous interests would make a person less inclined to indulge that interest in a more destructive way - given there was that risk to begin with, depending on the individual's personality and so forth.

    I could (and would) understand the concern if it was a group that was actually encouraging real-life atrocities - sharing real accounts of hurting people, real photographs, and creating a community that feeds on the product of real harm - as opposed to digital drawings of fictional cartoon characters, posted by people who, I should note, are completely comfortable posting these things using a well-known moniker.

    You seem to be assuming that pedophiles (and when I use this term, understand that it is in reference to those with the fetish - not child molesters) in general tend to have less restraint than those of other potentially dangerous fetishes. Like your own - you mentioned horror fetishism. I don't know you from Adam, but from what you describe, between the writing and artwork, you're indulging your interests in the same way Fiz is, yes? Harmlessly, and in fiction?

    These fetishes are both dangerous and unacceptable if acted upon. I fear as though you are giving yourself credit because you, naturally, trust that you will not take your interests outside of a fictional medium - whereas you are defaulting to the total opposite for someone else, just because you have no way of proving otherwise.

    I draw sexual horror myself, and people have insulted me for this in a colorful variety of ways - always complete strangers who see my gross fetishes and feel compelled to confront me or attempt to defame me on that observation alone. Like you, I know myself, and I know that I'd never indulge in such horrible things in a way that would bring harm to another living thing. Why do you assume otherwise when it comes to this particular fetish? Or perhaps I've misunderstood you - why do you assume Fiz in particular is dangerous?

    While I trust you have good intentions, I would strongly, strongly encourage you to reassess what it is you're attempting to do here.

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      it doesnt matter what their fetish is.
      Drawn child porn is illegal in the united states. If weasyl hosts it or refuses to take it down, they can be shut down.
      If Fiz's presence attracts people who draw these things, and if these things are not removed from weasyl in a timely manner, (which its not. and may have to do with fiz being a moderator) weasyl can be taken offline.

      "The law enacted 18 U.S.C. § 1466A, which criminalizes material that has "a visual depiction of any kind, including a drawing, cartoon, sculpture or painting" that "depicts a minor engaging in sexually explicit conduct and is obscene" or "depicts an image that is, or appears to be, of a minor engaging in ... sexual intercourse ... and lacks serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value". By its own terms, the law does not make all simulated child pornography illegal, only that found to be obscene or lacking in serious value.[citation needed]"

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        This is a good point here, but I don't think this is the point you started out with. At least it's not the one that aught to be addressed here. This comment: https://www.weasyl.com/journal/68368/owner-of-weasyl-draws-kiddie-porn#cid164748 That there. Is about the supposed effects of the formation of crowds of certain types of people. Slug commented about that sort of stuff, and Slug said a lot of things I wanted to say but did not know how.

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          (oh I refreshed and there is more below)

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            Oh my crap i need to make myself leave for now. Be back later.

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              its okay! again, I really wish I could edit comments. >:|

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                Naw naw I see how that looked like I left cause other reasons. It's that I am trying to get shit done I was doing before this happened but I had to stop and eat anyway so I came back. But now I actually got to get.

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          I didnt want to re-state what I said before, also I respect slugbones and I enjoy their work. I also think all of us are internalizing this event a bit more than we should. But analyzing it is also a good thing on that level.
          (I am also getting tired, so there is that too. I can take apart what slugbones was aiming at later and answer to that properly when I'm better rested)

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      We can argue semantics over what fetishes I like or what fetishes I dont like, what leads to what etc. But none of that really matters unless it's about a theoretical debate. The only thing that matters is that its illegal.

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      ack. I wish there was an "edit reply" button, but alas there isnt.
      I agree with you. Drawing something does not mean you will do it. But there's a difference between understanding its horror and terrible versus light and fun. It's all in the context which it's presented and who presents it. Thats the one defining feature if we're talking about potential illegal activities.

      except...
      the illegal activity isnt doing the harm to the child. It's producing the artwork. Because the artwork as fetish material isnt legal.
      We can argue semantics over the grey area all we want. But the truth of the matter is its still grey. I could draw some of the same images as what fiz draws, and I could make them horrifying. But that's not what's happening here. It's not the subject or the presentation or the person. It's all three together in a grey area. And it isnt about us. It's about fiz. We can argue about what we do and how we present ourselves, but this isnt about us or how we view the world. It's about how fiz draws illegal things that can get the site in trouble. In the long run, my opinion is only my opinion and your opinion is only your opinion. They are both negated and there is only law and facts that stand.

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        No semantics are being argued here - if you're referring to my mention of pedophilia vs. child molester, it was only because they're commonly conflated. My apologies if you were aware of the distinction; I did not intend to be condescending.

        Let us speak no more of the gray area, then. Honestly - my concern is now that your Tumblr post is largely sensationalist and fear-monger-y with no mention of what you are explaining now as your true concerns - which are purely legal, if I'm understanding correctly?

        In one comment you say, "The only thing that matters is that it's illegal" - if nothing else at all, it may be worth at least making that clear in your initial expose. Your Tumblr post, as well as a lot of what I'm reading in your journal here, does not suggest that's your only, or even primary concern. It really just sounds like you were upset after digging up some disagreeable artwork and are knee-jerking. I mean, only you can know for certain. I'll just leave it at that.

        Regardless, I do wonder how much Weasyl itself is even actually at risk due to its users doing legally questionable things elsewhere online. And I haven't used Inkbunny for years, so I don't know if and/or how their policies have updated, but it comes to mind as well.

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          if you read the hugh pile that has already formed above, you'll see....well I can link: https://www.weasyl.com/journal/68368/owner-of-weasyl-draws-kiddie-porn#cid164755

          There is an issue with it happening here, it would seem.

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            In response to " I do wonder how much Weasyl itself is even actually at risk due to its users doing legally questionable things elsewhere online."

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            By "at risk" I should have specified: "...of being eradicated due to this sort of content."

            And yes, I saw that list of links. At the risk of seeming like I'm splitting hairs, none of those pictures read as "kiddie porn" to me. I am seeing twinks/feminine males. I am seeing fully developed testicles on most of them - the two in which it's hard to tell are due to overall stylization. In addition, someone above defined "shota" as something distinct from drawn child pornography entirely. What definitions are we going by? I ask entirely because I feel like this list of images is comprised of images with the "shota" tag and not much beyond that.

            In fact: "It can also apply to postpubescent (adolescent or adult) characters with youthful neotenic features that would make them appear to be younger than they are.[2]" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shotacon

            For what that's worth.

            My personal perspective of these drawings is by all means one of many, but my reasoning for bringing up any of this is that I think it's relevant to mention that there seems to be a lot of subjectivity in this issue. Hell, even in the law itself: "The law enacted 18 U.S.C. § 1466A, which criminalizes material that has "a visual depiction of any kind, including a drawing, cartoon, sculpture or painting" that "depicts a minor engaging in sexually explicit conduct and is obscene" or "depicts an image that is, or appears to be, of a minor engaging in ... sexual intercourse ... and lacks serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value". As mentioned in the article, this does not apply to all instances of it, just a seemingly arbitrary selection.

            Which is actually a huge concern in my mind, but that's getting more off-track than I already am.

            Essentially, I'm still wondering if these images and whatever Fiz is doing outside of Weasyl really warrant the apocalyptic Tumblr post - one that, again, seems void of any mention of legal concerns, wholly or otherwise.

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              I was under the impression for much of my conversation above that shota always meant underage. And found out later when Spidie mentioned it https://www.weasyl.com/journal/68368/welp#cid164835 the other definition, which i then looked up and verified. When I looked at those pictures, I think I had some something-ain't-quite-adding-up-here, feeling, at some point. Some vague little feeling. but it's been a day and I was really damn tired reading all this stuff. Anyway I /think/ the impression I got was that the shota images on weasyl that were linked, or at least one or a few of them, didn't /appear/ underage except in /name/. That is, my caution-feeling might have been, that I might have figured that, given the variation in drawing styles and the tendency to sexualize a character into certain sexually appealing forms, they were in fact underage perhaps only by the declaration of the artist, as the "shota" tag was there. And what else could the shota tag mean but underage? Well, now we know it could mean "It can also apply to postpubescent (adolescent or adult) characters with youthful neotenic features that would make them appear to be younger than they are."

              In a similar way as how I thought the tag was applied. You can make a dog character that has like, nothing to do with being a dog except its got floppy ears, a toon dog nose, and an anthro form. Otherwise it looks like some generic furry. And you call it a dog, well, I guess it's a dog. The characters did look young to but, can be youthful and 18, and that seems to be what that alt definition means.

              Now, if those images are of that sort: "It can also apply to postpubescent (adolescent or adult) characters with youthful neotenic features that would make them appear to be younger than they are."
              And they were flagged, and not removed, that makes sense. I think this was partly why I asked: https://www.weasyl.com/journal/68368/welp#cid164755
              If they were the exact images flagged, as not knowing the above definition yet, these little details have a way of becoming relevant. I did not get a reply, yet.

              Someone else in here said: https://www.weasyl.com/journal/68368/welp#cid164880
              That they reported /cub/ porn and that it was promptly removed. Given that they said thy reported it yesterday, and this journal was posted early yesterday, if 'the 4th" constitutes yesterdays and time zones and shit are the same (hair splitting details) possibly, the staff is on their toes. But I imagine actual child porn is actually getting removed most of the time. If someone has a story saying otherwise, speak up.

              I made a report on the legal status of this stuff based on what I could find on wikipedia, that I may soon post in the convo above. It is extremely confusing, and the law itself seems to be vague, and varies wildl by location and also by the actual /community/ in the area. I am unsure if the"community" is functionally identical to the area, like a state population, or if it can vary for instance, as a smaller subset within (say th Amish in a state, as opposed to the other cultural groups in a state). There is something called the Miller Test which is used to determine the legality of a particular instance of material-in-question. I will report this above when its finished being prepared.

              Uh, well. I went back up to this link: https://www.weasyl.com/journal/68368/welp#cid164755
              To get my impression on those pictures again to see if they pinged me as undersage or not, as I was freaking tired the first time I looked and barely remember an wanted to amke sure what I said above about my impressions were accurate.

              And I notice only two remain, that the other 3 have been removed. I don't know if the admins removed them, or if the artists caught wind of this journal or started getting harassed or too much attention or WHAT. I don't know but they ain't there now. These two remain:

              https://www.weasyl.com/submission/102235/unnamed-and-unnamed
              https://www.weasyl.com/submission/485202/wip-shotaboy-gangbang

              Now, this one: https://www.weasyl.com/submission/485202/wip-shotaboy-gangbang
              When writing that stuff I said above about something not seeming right about those images actually being underage, this image is the one I was thinking about the most. I actually barely remember the others so I can not really tell what I thought which is why i went back to check again. But it is notable to me that this one is still posted. it does seem to be an example of the overlooked definition of shota.

              These look young but could very well be over 18: https://www.weasyl.com/submission/102235/unnamed-and-unnamed It's hard to tell. Nothing says they aren't, now that we know the other definition of shota. I don't think you could be rightfully accused of making child porn based on this image. There isn't anything available that actually claims they are underage. And that one has a pretty impressive, mature looking boner. But then again, I put boners on robots that don't canonically have them. If "kid" is your base "creature" then I guess you could slap a boner onto that too. But what I'm saying is, there is no way to prove this is a kid short of the artist saying it is. It's too ambiguous (both of the characters in this picture are) and the shota definition allows for overage characters.

              I am irritated I can not review the other images.

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                Oh, I checked the comment on https://www.weasyl.com/submission/102235/unnamed-and-unnamed . I checked both to make sure it didn't explicitly say they were under 18, and found the opposite for that image:

                "It should also be said that both characters, though they do

                have a seemingly young outward appearance, are both 18

                years of age."

                This could have possibly changed since this fiasco drama started but, I think I looked at that image when Zr posted that link, and I don't think i read the comment, but I think it had that shape. The paragraph shape. I don't /think/ that content was changed since I last looked at it.

                So there is that.

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            Oh, sorry - just now noticed you'd linked that same line from Wikipedia, haha.

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    I knew Weasyl had something fishy the moment I joined, just like all of the other art websites I'm on. But I never expected something as upsetting as this.

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      Me neither. It seemed like Weasyl was gonna be a saving grace, but I guess my hopes were kinda high.

      I'm just hoping that Weasyl manages a suitable and effective solution to Fiz, which prevents further problematic [legal and community] grey-areas, because honestly I do like this site. It has a nice site functionality and the interpersonal conflicts aren't as harsh and all over the place as, say, FurAffinity or DeviantART. Provided this situation is nipped in the bud before it becomes a problem and/or other issues in moderation and site content get out of hand, or with things just going entirely under the radar/turning into some kind of breeding ground for dangerous activity (I'm looking at you, InkBunny), then I'm pretty content to stay.

      Just... not with something like this being so under the rug.

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        Agreed. I mean, I can't believe Fiz, or at least I never thought, that Fiz would do that type of stuff. Does he know we know yet or...?

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          Probably does now that there's been mention of it.

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            Wether they know or not, what's important is that everyone else knows.

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              And not only that people know, but that they [staff] manage the situation effectively, without sweeping under the rug in the same way FA did with their problematic staff.

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                Today someone was uploading cub porn to weasyl, which I reported. Now that I got back home I noticed that all of it is deleted, and they are banned. I don't know how weasyl is "sweeping this under the rug" when they actually do delete rule-breaking content that is reported?

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                  I never said they were, only that they shouldn't. If they're managing the situation and this kind of art is indeed getting moderated, this is a good thing and exactly what should be happening.

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            And they edited now I guess... Since it was a "callout". Sighs ...

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              The tumblr post still exists though, and Weasyl has very little they can do to stop the spreading of information on other sites. Also, Weasyl and Tumblr have a pretty significant overlap in users so the community here is still sure to be notified either way.

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                Aye, true.

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                My concern is that the tumblr post is not going to properly encourage people to come look at the discussion. Though I saw the tumblr post got some discussion of its own going on.

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    Huh. Let's see what happens with this.

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    This is the reply from Fiz:

    My deviantART page used to be littered with quotes people made against myself. I think that quote in particular was from some 4chan thread years ago. I literally had not edited my deviantART main page customization for a good 3-4 years until recently, because 1. it was in bad taste and 2. I honestly forgot about what was on the page.
    So yes, it was an accusation. If you look at that archive.today page you were searching on, you can see more rude quotes like that made against me.
    After reading the journal though, I need to point out a few things:
    I'm not Weasyl's owner. Common misconception though.
    Most, if not all of that stuff, was drawn before it became a legal grey area and later on, illegal depending on country. I'm talking 4-7 years ago.
    I haven't drawn any of it in a long time or joked about it because I realized it was making people feel uncomfortable

    Basically, I'm trying my best to keep that problematic behavior of mine back in the past, because I was just a huge asshole in more ways than one. Long story short, I realized of better ways to deal with the things I was going through than to lash out and be a jerk to people and gross people out. That said, I'll never deny that this stuff happened. I've never tried to hide how I used to act. I just wish people would give me a chance to see how I am now, but I also understand that I burned too many people too much so I can see why people wouldn't give me the time of day.
    Also, I saw in some of the comments of the journal that people would be worried that I'd attract other shota-liking people to Weasyl and let them get away with posting that stuff on here. That's wrong, no one is exempt from the rules. If a violating submission isn't removed yet, it's because it was either not reported, or it was reported and the staff just haven't gotten the chance to check it out yet. And unfortunately, underage characters in sexual situation violations can take a bit longer to deal with, since they usually required a staff discussion due to the nature of the violation.
    If you have any other questions, feel free to ask.
    -Fiz

    more about reporting it..

    I've never been the co-owner, and I doubt I ever will be. All underage content reports need to be discussed with Admin staff to determine if it breaks our rules. Sometimes, submissions under a 'shota' tag do not appear underage at all. Sometimes people use it in place of terms like 'femboy' or 'twink'. Shota also doesn't necessarily mean underage as well. To quote Wikipedia:
    "It can also apply to postpubescent (adolescent or adult) characters with youthful neotenic features that would make them appear to be younger than they are."
    It's not always a cut and dry thing to deal with. It also needs to be known that if something isn't reported, the staff probably haven't seen it yet. We don't go searching for violations.
    Also, if a submission with characters that look like adults, but you know for a fact the characters are underage, that also needs to be mentioned with evidence in a report, because otherwise we might not know.
    So yeah, it really has nothing to do with what I drew or what I liked. We don't delete or let things slide based on what we like or dislike. Everyone has to follow the same rules.
    Hope that clears some things up.
    -Fiz

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    Having looked through this, and seeing what everyone had to say. This was a pretty A+ thread.

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      The maturity in replies has surprised me, I will say that much. Was honestly expecting a lot more flamewar and banhammer lmfao

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        I mean, I don't think Weasyl is anywhere near as trashy as other places. It just has to avoid association with trashy things in order to maintain a good reputation

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        It is interesting, isn't it?

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          I saw one person got banned for telling Fiz to kill herself. On Fiz's page.

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            That was unrelated to this journal though. I know the guy who told that to Fiz, he's a sad case.

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            Death threats are extreme even for me.

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              Guys, as icky and inhuman as Fiz might seem right now, wishing death threats upon anyone is a horrible thing to do and doesn't make you any better of a person.

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            Death threats and suicide prompts are taken very seriously on this site and may result in a ban no matter who they are directed toward if it is reported.

            Additionally I just want to clear up that it's staff policy that moderators and admins don't act on cases which are directed toward them it's given to other staff members that may be more impartial.

            I won't go into detail for why said user was banned, but the simple act of telling any user to kill themselves on this site can result in a ban"

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              I agree. We don't want that behavior here.

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            I've been watching that user around the site for quite some time, the threat towards Fiz is completely unrelated

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      I know, right?

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    I don't really know much about this topic (every once in a while I'll browse through journals and comment/view ones that seem interesting), but I have a few things to say.
    What seems to be the consensus here is that the content that someone drew on another site (and fans they may have gained through that) is bad/dangerous because it could attract those types of people onto Weasyl and encourage them to post more art like that on this website, which could get the website in trouble.
    Weasyl is not responsible for the behaviour of it's userbase, and rules are put into place for a reason; specifically rules banning the uploading of "shota", "loli", "cub", etc. People who are interested in those kinds of art will come around no matter what, and this would happen regardless of this user posting this type of art on this website. Weasyl is also incredibly fast in removing art that violates the rules.
    The furry fandom attracts all sorts of people (I think shota and loli is more popular amongst the anime/manga community anyways), and there certainly are bad people out there who are genuinely interested in harming living things, but I just don't believe that someone posting that type of art on another separate website will encourage lawbreakers to flaunt their abuse and lawbreaking on the website.

    As for the arguments that I often see about "well as long as they're getting their rocks off to this and not the real deal", I think that's an even more dangerous point of view because it doesn't encourage or even suggest that this person seek mental help or therapy. If "I can look at fake stuff" is the only thing keeping someone from harming another being, that's something that should definitely be taken seriously.

    I just don't feel that the art posted by someone on another website that hasn't affected the way the rules have been applied on this website is something worth trying to get someone fired or booted out for.

    All that being said, I think the Bad Guy implications about this user are completely unfounded.

    I'm sorry for jumping into this journal like that!