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The fear of nuance by KovzielFaust

So lonecompanion was encouraging me to put my thoughts down on this subject:
here goes my first Weasyl journal.

I keep feeling like every time I have a Criticism of something other than "thing X sucks" I find my criticism lost in a sea of people saying "thing X sucks".
It happens with a LOT of things. and it seems like a recurring theme in modern discourse on anything.

Case in point. Genetically modified organisms. (braces for potential drama)

I've had conversations where someone says "GMO crops are evil and shouldn't be used" and I reply "GMO crops can be extremely good things, there are millions of people who have food because of a biologist named Norman Borlaug's (seriously, look this guy up, he's awesome and not well known enough) work, and they otherwise would've starved to death" and then they go on and attack me for saying that there's shades of good and bad in this situation.

GMO crops as an example work really well to illustrate this. I'm strongly against the idea of proprietary genomes.
I'm against a lot of what monsanto is doing with GMO soybeans and corn because of the impact it's having on agriculture in general (that's a whole other journal though). but when I state that GMO can be used to do truly good things I get attacked for it.

I've observed this in other scenarios as well. ESPECIALLY in politics and the intersection of policy and science.

It feels like unless people can be completely for or against something they can't deal. It's like you're not allowed to have a position that's taken into account the good and bad aspects of a thing.

the problem with that is while some things are clear cut and it's easy to stake out a position on, some things are extremely complex and not easy to pin down on one pole or another. I've been calling this trend "fear of nuance".

The fear of nuance

KovzielFaust

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    hi there. I hope you don't mind if I dump a metric shit-ton of text here.

    "GMO crops can be extremely good things...

    similar statements could be made about television, so i consider that proposition to be in the same category. television could be used for great good. but, it wasn't introduced for the purpose of doing good and has, with exceedingly few exceptions [which are themselves highly dubious], never been used for that purpose.

    there are millions of people who have food because of a biologist named Norman Borlaug...

    i skimmed the wikipedia page on Borlaug. i'll read more about him but in the meantime i am not anywhere close to being convinced of the benefit and certainly not of the 'safety' of GM foods. although i haven't kept up with the subject of genetically modified crops in the past 4 years, i'll briefly mention this: i work with a chef who grows all the produce he uses at his restaurant. he grows it aquaponically. in introducing the topic of aquaponics to my father he immediately tried to find fault with it, questioning how 'feasible' it is (as well as suggesting that there was a problem with not being able to utilize a salt-water system. that's my dad...). and yet, this chef supplies his own extremely busy restaurant with enough left over to sell to other restaurants, at farmers markets and donate to soup kitchens. his system does not require roundup ready plants because there are no pesticides used - pesticides would poison the water, kill the fish and thereby collapse the system. he also is somewhat in to vertical farming, about which I must learn more.

    while aquaponics is not entirely self-sustaining it is very nearly so and is clearly an extremely efficient and sensible method of growing food. the only barrier i can think of offhand to the adoption of aquaponic growing methods in famine-stricken countries is, that despite the relatively low cost of setting such systems up, such countries and regions do not have the initial capital to invest and are run by utterly corrupt governments and international "aid" organizations which have no intention of helping their populations become self-sufficient. the giant agricultural corporations would not have such a profitable market either if people could produce a lot of green vegetables and edible fish almost entirely by their own resources.

    anyway, i'll re-acquaint myself with the gmo issues over the next little while.

    I'm against a lot of what monsanto is doing...

    that is a sensible position to hold in my estimation. we have but to look at who is promoting them and stands the most to gain from their adoption versus who is promoting and stands the most to gain from small-scale organic farming methods to see the character of the issue.

    when a farmer from whom i purchase produce informed me four years ago that the USDA was on the brink of de-regulating round-up ready alfalfa i went to the bother of reading the entire 400ish page environmental impact report, as well as several other relevant documents, and lodging a formal protest. you can read it if you want. it did as much good as i expected. it's a little depressing to read the rest of the comments (not that I read all 12,000-odd comments...just skimmed them) - beside from the persons who think pesticide-resistant plants are a great idea are those who are firmly against them, but are also often distressingly illiterate. I get the same when I find myself against popular 'progressive' opinion, for instance on abortion. the only people agreeing with me on the issue are people I'm embarrassed to be associated with!

    It feels like unless people can be completely for or against something they can't deal. It's like you're not allowed to have a position that's taken into account the good and bad aspects of a thing.

    the problem with that is while some things are clear cut and it's easy to stake out a position on, some things are extremely complex and not easy to pin down on one pole or another. I've been calling this trend "fear of nuance".

    and now to address the actual point of your post (finally sheesh!!):
    you are right that the adoption of uncompromising positions at the irreconcilable extreme of a polarized argument is a widespread problem. people often compensate for the shallowness of their opinions and beliefs by exaggerated vehemence. this habit is useful to the maintenance of the status quo because it ensures that people will be opponents, if not enemies, but certainly not allies. you can see it being encouraged in debates (any atheist/christian debate on youtube should serve as an example), and in popular entertainment in which sarcastic, insulting contentiousness is ever more the default mode of relation between any given characters. actually, i consider the aforementioned debates to be entertainment too; they are both meant to appeal to the same unpleasant juvenile facet of our character that jerry springer targeted, and to provide us with an opinion that we passively and for the most part unconsciously adopt via highly contrived pre-fabricated dialogue that is laced with contempt and unspoken emotionally-operative suggestion. the debate format is in a certain way more insidious because it is conducted under a veneer of legitimacy through the inclusion of logical reasoning which we are conditioned to accept because we have been programmed to idolize logic rather than practice it. logic though is of course full of pitfalls even for the sincere practitioner - how much more dangerous is it when used as a rhetorical technique by an unscrupulous or egocentric person?

    the presumption of bi-polarity it is included in our set of presumptions; we talk about hearing 'both sides' of an issue; a person is either 'for' or 'against' this or that. it is the dialectical technique. opposites are necessary in order to eventually manifest the pre-formulated synthesis. and as long as we accept the premises we have no path to follow but that which was laid out for us between the two opposing barriers, and we come to the conclusion the path was laid to lead us to in full belief that it is the most logical, rational and reasonable conclusion that we, free thinkers that we are, came to by our own prodigious powers of intellect.

    even when we really stretch our imaginations the best many of us can formulate is that "it's not black and white but shades of grey"(footnote). and what of colour? what of the entire electro-magnetic spectrum, which might be analogous to all the modes of thought available to human minds?

    I think positions are often taken in a backward fashion - that a person accepts a position based on emotional or conditioned reflex (ie a 'respected' authority makes it clear which opinion is the right one) and then follows the reasoning backward and convinces themself that they did it the other way around. I know that I have certainly done this, and continue to do it, because to actually have the intellectual honesty to do it the right way is hard and I'm a lazy cunt.

    but, if the hard work of reasoning really has been done then the likelihood is that the conclusion won't turn out to be an extreme one, because too many points would have been taken into consideration. or if it is 'extreme' it would be extreme in terms of passion borne of deep understanding, not in regard to its inflexibility and how animatedly its professor professes it.

    the 'extreme' posture is furthered by the attitude that proliferates unchecked on the internet of sarcastic, caustic, compulsively contrary viciousness - i don't merely disagree with you, you are not merely wrong on this or that point; instead, you are a goddamn fu

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      oh, I broke the comment field. well, here's the rest:

      the 'extreme' posture is furthered by the attitude that proliferates unchecked on the internet of sarcastic, caustic, compulsively contrary viciousness - i don't merely disagree with you, you are not merely wrong on this or that point; instead, you are a goddamn fucking retarded basement dwelling moronic genetic dead-end who should be shot in the head and fed to the dogs. i don't even engage with persons who indulge in this sort of stuff; actually, to a significant extent i don't consider them to be persons, because they clearly haven't formed their own personalities. they downloaded one of the stock generic (asshole) personalities from message boards and youtube comments etc. how can you communicate with that? i think LC has more genuine communication with out-and-out robots!

      being a person is hard work. you really have to put in the hours of contemplation, you really have to go out of your way to find things out and explore lines of thought that you don't necessarily agree with, you have to weigh elements honestly and restrain your own reflexive responses and recognize your own limitations, faults and bad decisions. most people want to have the demeanor of confidence without earning it, like they want a model's physique without having to bother with all that diet and exercise. you have to question your own assumptions and frequently re-try your established opinions to make sure they stand the challenges of new information and analyses. it's exhausting! but there's no other way. you do what's necessary or you are a poseur.

      i have met people who have the right to hold strong opinions, and you can tell the difference between them and those who are putting on an act. you can see the depth in their eyes, and unspoken substance beneath their words. the genuine article always stands by its own merit, and never needs to descend to childish invectives. it respects itself because it is privy to the struggle of its own development, and so doesn't demean itself by demeaning others, and shows those lesser than it more respect than they often show themselves in order that they may learn self-respect. in every act and word it is its own demonstration, and is irrefutable.

      and now that i am done ripping off emerson, i subside, except to mention that in responding to this journal I have not got a lick of painting done tonight >=C.

      footnote
      *that's another line my dad likes...gosh am i really just railing against my father with all this?? hum, sounds like a personal issue...but i'm into it now, so i'll continue.

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        "people often compensate for the shallowness of their opinions and beliefs by exaggerated vehemence. this habit is useful to the maintenance of the status quo because it ensures that people will be opponents, if not enemies, but certainly not allies."

        I wonder if the evolutionary reason for this, is so people who you can tell won't be on your side, you can dehumanize into the "enemy," marked to be destroyed. If you can't gain them, destroy them.

        "programmed to idolize logic rather than practice it"

        I have experience with that.

        "the presumption of bi-polarity..." paragraph is interesting.

        "but, if the hard work of reasoning really has been done then the likelihood is that the conclusion won't turn out to be an extreme one, because too many points would have been taken into consideration. or if it is 'extreme' it would be extreme in terms of passion borne of deep understanding, not in regard to its inflexibility and how animatedly its professor professes it."
        Something seems amiss, but this is interesting. First part seems it may be legit. Don't know about the second part. First part seems to be what is happening to me. Second part -- don't know how to say it but the phrase "unresolved emotional issues" keeps coming to mind.

        "you are a goddamn fu" Perfect censoring, Weasyl.

        " i think LC has more genuine communication with out-and-out robots! "
        Helping Cleverbot gain sentience.

        You do realize you are doing /sort of/ the same thing in this below paragraph, that you are saying those peeps do.
        "to a significant extent i don't consider them to be persons, because they clearly haven't formed their own personalities. they downloaded one of the stock generic (asshole) personalities from message boards and youtube comments etc. how can you communicate with that?"
        By my definition, they are persons, even /if/ they have downloaded a personality. Though it is not that simple, and what you see them type and say is not the whole self. Though it really does feel that way, sometimes. Some of the people I meet on Omegle revive my misanthropy. Their minds are a mystery to me. Maybe one day I'll have access to one.

        How did you make that tiny "footnote" thing? I need that. That just resized text?

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          well I used the sub tag, just stick it in a <> type bracket, sub /sub. you can do superscript with sup /sup. alternatively you can press ctrl shift + to do superscript and ctrl = for superscript although that doesn't seem to work in this firefox browser; or rather, it zooms in or out but doesn't effect text even when highlighted. it worked in MS word though.

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          "but, if the hard work of reasoning really has been done then the likelihood is that the conclusion won't turn out to be an extreme one, because too many points would have been taken into consideration. or if it is 'extreme' it would be extreme in terms of passion borne of deep understanding, not in regard to its inflexibility and how animatedly its professor professes it."

          • Something seems amiss, but this is interesting. First part seems it may be legit. Don't know about the second part. First part seems to be what is happening to me. Second part -- don't know how to say it but the phrase "unresolved emotional issues" keeps coming to mind.*

          yeah I had that feeling too but couldn't think of a better way to say what I meant...or maybe I just wasn't able to think it through to development. or maybe I'm just completely full of shit. even I don't know!
          do you mean that you think I have unresolved emotional issues (I certainly don't deny it!), or you, or a hypothetical person I may have been referring to...? that if a person seems more than reasonably emotionally invested in a statement of opinion or belief that they're probably expressing their own unresolved issues under the cover of an apparently unrelated opinion?

          • You do realize you are doing /sort of/ the same thing in this below paragraph, that you are saying those peeps do.*

          oh yes. it's rare that I exempt myself from criticisms I make about common behavior. I am, after all, a commoner also.

          "to a significant extent i don't consider them to be persons, because they clearly haven't formed their own personalities. they downloaded one of the stock generic (asshole) personalities from message boards and youtube comments etc. how can you communicate with that?"

          • By my definition, they are persons, even /if/ they have downloaded a personality. Though it is not that simple, and what you see them type and say is not the whole self.*

          yes, I don't deny that they are of course persons, but I think that often we make less of ourselves by adopting the behaviors and mannerisms we've encountered. no one exists in a vacuum, probably, but there's a certain substance to that part of the character that was formed completely within oneself in the forge of purely private experience, which is not beholden to any cultural or interpersonal influence, that I find...well more worthy than the other sort. it is true in a way that adopted behavior patterns and conceptions are not. it is individuality in the robust sense, and I think its development needs to be preferentially encouraged. why try to be someone besides yourself? I mean by default. every human being has unpredictable potential, and I think that the main value of being human is that you are that part of the universe which can know itself. I have to flesh this out more, but i'll leave this much here for now.

          appendix: in the course of typing this post I found that using an asterisk can have two functions. the first is to make text italicized. but if you put a space between the asterisk and the next character and stick it on its own line, it will be

          • an indented, bulleted quotation. neat! but apparently the sub/sup tags can't be combined with it. ah well, nothing's ever perfect is it?
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        Ho-lee shit dude, that's one hell of a comment.
        Thanks for the awesome reply.

        Goddamn Fu sounds like a vulgar martial art.

        More later once I'm awake

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    You have been Sporked.

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    What's a non-religious alternative to "Amen!"? Hurrah? Bravo?

    People want to jump to the conclusion that if X was bad in Y circumstance or when Z person did it, then everything even remotely like X is automatically bad, too.

    What's even worse is when people popularly condemn X thing without realizing that they've always been perfectly accepting of it under a specific circumstance. For example, isn't 'eugenics' such an evil thing? Hitler used it to oppress non-whites and try to create a master-race etc. etc. Oh wait a second, wasn't there a case when the control of which people can and can't breed with each other is considered a good thing? Oh yeah, it's called IN-BREEDING BEING ILLEGAL. That's fucking eugenics. How about a scenario where eugenics is openly celebrated? OH YEAH IT'S CALLED PEDIGREE PET BREEDING.

    But naw if you talk about forbidding or penalizing people who aren't fit to be parents or carry life-ruining genetic disorders/diseases when they want to have kids, you MUST be hitler 'cause he did eugenics too.

    Also see the trope "Hitler ate sugar"

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      Sporks replies are long enough; Crashfu has meta-enacted Godwin's law.

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      Also, Tv Tropes has "Villains Out Shopping" linked under "Hitler Ate Sugar."
      Between these two, my brain generated a little fragment of a scene where Arcee and Powersync are talking about Starscream:

      Arcee: He KILLED my PARTNER!?
      How can you LOVE someone like that??!

      Powersync: He's not evil /all/ the time.

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    A or -A

    A whole issue, is reduced to that. But a whole issue, is made up of many separate A or -A.

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    we've been genetically modifying our food since the beginning of fucking time how is GMO even a fucking issue

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      Unfortunately the proprietary organism thing and various "roundup ready" pesticide resistant crops is leading to the unintended consequence of extremely pesticide resistant pests. as in the freaking beetles that were eating the crops are still eating the crops. they're just getting more and more resistant to pesticides.

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      selective breeding of plants to increase expression of desirable characteristics has been done for a long time. directly injecting foreign genetic materiel, not merely from different species but from different kingdoms of organisms, is a different matter. in the first case, you know the plant is safe enough to eat and that any difference between the original and a specially bread variety is not likely to prove catastrophic to your health.

      with genetically modified organisms, that is not known. the best we have are assurances that things are going to be fine, made by people who were paid by the product's manufacturer to generate data supporting that conclusion. here is a forbes article written to persuade the reader than genetically engineered crops have been found to be okay, but you'll notice that the figure of 68% is cited for the amount of the studies referred to consisting of environmental impact studies. if you read my post above you'll see a link to a letter I sent to the usda regarding one such EIS pertaining to roundup ready alfalfa. while it is the only EIS I've read, it should indicate clearly enough why I am suspicious of the Forbes's writer's assurances, despite his snarky self-assurance.

      to be honest, I'm more concerned with the techniques of psychological manipulation implemented to support claims, such as in the article above. a study of propaganda techniques and a few mushroom trips would confer a greater comprehension of truth than the suggestion to "review the literature!" uh, i've done that before on other issues and it is a thankless and futile endeavor. the reality of the situation is that science is trumped by pre-conceived conclusions all across the board, not just by alarmist/anti-science/nut-jobs/cranks/wing-nuts/fill-in-the-blank crowd but by everyone, even the credible/reasonable/rational/logical science advocates. reviewing the literature is a full time job, and without any expectation of benefit why bother? for the 'pleasure' of being able to (mas)debate with [whomever] while legislation gets passed regardless? while giving up the positive things in my life because I'm busy reviewing 1783 bullshit articles? the agenda is going forward regardless, and while I'm scrambling to put information together in a way that makes sense to me the need for having it passes. I think instead i'll embrace the centrality of my existence to myself and the marginality of it otherwise. of course, that centrality is eroded day by day, ever accelerating, so that's not really a sustainable option. there are other options, of course. the possible condemnation of being irrational is not one of my worries.

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        Forbes? Couldn't you find anything from a legit scientific journal I'm pretty sure there's a study from one of those

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          I could have done that just as you could have addressed my contributions more thoroughly and constructively. perhaps neither of us are interested in coming to any real understanding? at any rate, i'll revisit the thread when I've done some more reading on the subject.

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    Splitting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splitting_%28psychology%29

    "Splitting (also called all-or-nothing thinking) is the failure in a person's thinking to bring together both positive and negative qualities of the self and others into a cohesive, realistic whole. It is a common defense mechanism used by many people.[1] The individual tends to think in extremes (i.e., an individual's actions and motivations are all good or all bad with no middle ground.)"

    Etc